The Clash of Orders with Vali Nasr on Iran

Mark Leonard is joined by Vali Nasr to learn more about the Iranian perspective on global order

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Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.

In this fifth episode, Leonard is joined by Vali Nasr – Majid Khadduri professor of International Affairs and Middle East Studies at the Johns Hopkins -SAIS, and a non-resident senior fellow at Atlantic Council’s South Asia Center – to learn more about the Iranian perspective on global order. What role does anti-Americanism play in advancing Iran’s interest in the Middle East? How are notions of power, freedom, and justice between Iranian leaders and the population different? And finally, to what extent do the Iran-Iraq War and Western sanctions shape understandings about “order” today in Iran?


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